Different Slants

Seeing the World from a New Angle

Is the Iraq War Like the Viet Nam War?

Filed under: Politics — Rick at 10:18 am on Monday, August 27, 2007

The U.S. wars in Iraq and Viet Nam bear little resemblance in my opinion. The North Vietnamese were fighting for reunification and were supported by two world powers, China and the Soviet Union. The Iraqis seem to be fighting to settle old scores. But since President Bush made the analogy, lets think about it.

Why were these wars started?

In the case of Viet Nam, the war was started by the French to protect French economic interests and taken over by the U.S. for idealogical reasons, to fight the spread of communism. In the case of Iraq, the reasons given keep changing. The only one not mentioned, to protect U.S. oil supplies, seems the most likely. We may never know the real reasons behind this war.

How were the wars sold to the American public?

In both cases through lies. In Viet Nam, it was the Gulf of Tonkin attack on an American Navel vessel that never actually occurred. For Iraq, it was weapons of mass destruction that threatened Israel, Europe, and the United States. It often takes lies to get the public to agree to war, the truth is usually not bad enough.

What are the consequences of these wars?

The U.S. costs in lives and dollars are well documented. The costs to the Vietnamese and Iraqis are not as well documented but are in any case, immensely higher.

The domestic consequence of the Viet Nam war was a generation of Americans with a very deep distrust of government. In Southeast Asia, U.S. presence may have been responsible for the rise of the Khmer Rouge who killed 1.5 million people. The predicted consequence of all Southeast Asia falling to the communists never happened. In fact, it was the Vietnamese communists who went into Cambodia to stop the killing by the Kmer Rouge. It also proved that even a super power could be defeated in a war they could not justify to their own people – a situation later repeated by the Soviets in Afghanistan.

We don’t know what the long term consequences of the War in Iraq will be. Regardless of when we pull out, there is little to make me believe any good will come of it. The U.S. has seriously damaged its reputation in the world and we may have created another generation of political cynicism. We have allowed ourselves to be distracted from the real threats to our security and damaged our economy in ways that might not be evident for several years.

The question now is not should we withdraw. It is how to withdraw while causing the least amount of harm to Iraq and ourselves. The answer is not clear. There seem to be no good options, leaving us to choose among the bad ones.

7 Comments »

Comment by Don Larson

August 27, 2007 @ 9:58 pm

I don’t see much similarity between Vietnam or the War on Terror.

Americans didn’t kill the people slaughtered by the Khmer Rouge nor the people killed by the insurgents or Al Qaeda in Iraq or other places. Those deaths are caused by non-American forces, so we are not to blame for them.

Americans should not feel guilty for the deaths of people not caused by our forces. We can feel sad for them, but we are not responsible for their deaths. I don’t feel guilty for that simple reason.

As for our reputation, that’s not a concern of mine. If our reputation was so important, most nations would have helped us fight the War on Terror. Instead many nations are against us anyway, so what they think is unimportant to me. They are bit players on the global stage for the most part any way.

As for political cynicism here, that’s nothing new and various policies cause cynicism. I was cynical when President Carter turned out to be a real wimp towards Iran in 1979. I was cynical when President Clinton sent our troops and planes to be part of U.N. peacekeeping missions around the globe. Those were very bad ideas, in my humble opinion.

I helped vote Carter (whom I voted for in 1976) out in 1980 by voting for Reagan. Carter changed me from being a Democrat to being a Republican. I voted for the current President Bush twice and gladly because the wimpy alternatives by the Democrats in 2000 and 2004 reminded me of that very wimpy Carter. I totally agree that Democrats are weak on defense and even weaker on offense in war.

I have no idea when America will withdraw from any war zone. We should only withdraw under military victory otherwise we will give motivation to enemies to attack us again.

If America fought wars to win in short time frames, none of these messes would arise. I’m still holding out for a change in America policies for fighting wars to win in the short haul instead of stalemate or losses after years of military action. There will be plenty of opportunities in the upcoming wars to change in that direction. Stay tuned…

Don

Comment by RGM

August 28, 2007 @ 7:27 am

I think we have had support for the “War on Terror”. NATO troops out number our own in Afghanistan. But that has little to do with Iraq.

Fighting “wars to win short time frames” sounds a bit like the old “nuke ’em all and let God sort ’em out” cliche. I am sure that is not what you mean.

Rick

Comment by Don Larson

August 28, 2007 @ 8:33 am

Rick,

Are you for prolonged wars then? There will be wars, you know.

If you think fighting wars in the way we have been is better than winning wars quickly, then you should be satisfied with the status quo.

I’m not for prolonged wars. I’m for fighting wars to win quickly and then leave.

I believe Americans will eventually figure out it’s better to win wars quickly than other approaches to fighting wars. We are in the period of time when Americans are still willing to sacrifice American lives and treasury to fight wars the old way. As the risk to fighting that way become too great, new approaches to fight probably will appear.

We’ll both have to wait and see the eventual outcome. Will America lose wars and our nation decline or cease to exist, or will America come to its senses? I think Americans will not want to decline or cease to exist. So for me, it’s only a matter of time before a new reality appears.

The next General Election will be insightful in that regard. Will America elect a President and a Congress to protect America or will they elect people who take us down a more dangerous path?

The enemies of America are watching and waiting to kill and bring more harm to us. They don’t care very much about what we think, regardless of the positions we take. They have one focus in mind, victory. Hopefully, we will want victory too!

Don

Comment by richard.munden

September 1, 2007 @ 9:54 am

Don,

I am not for wars at all although I realize some may be unavoidable.

Please explain the quick way to win a war versus the old way.

Rick

Comment by Don Larson

September 2, 2007 @ 10:24 am

Rick,

Wars are not useful from our point of view.

However, not every nation feels that way. Terrorists see war as the only way. To ignore those threats is not good and only gets our people harmed or killed. Even though we may not care for war, we should fight to win and in no other way.

Since you asked me how to fight to win. I will turn back to Vietnam, a war we both were against.

In the winter of late 1972, President Nixon ordered the massive bombing of Hanoi, unprecedented in the level before that time. It was at that time that North Vietnam decided it could not endure that kind of damage and agreed to the peace deal that followed. Not long afterwards, many people began to ask aloud, why hadn’t that policy of massive bombing of Hanoi been done back in 1965?

I was one of those people, even though I was against the war. That’s one lesson I learned from the Vietnam War, to fight to win from the beginning and not in the old ways.

I do not share the “war-encouraging” ideas of “rules of war”. When one side follows “rules” and the other sides do not, more people, not less suffer or die. It is my belief that the very nature of war should be as brutal as possible, because in that way, wars be be less useful to wage.

You have often spoken of the vast military industrial complex. It is able to exist and perpetuate itself because it claims to abide by the rules of war.

You strongly believe that you will not participate in a war. I strongly feel that I will not follow any rules, laws, or treaties with respect to the War on Terror. The interesting thing is that everyone on this planet is in the War on Terror because of the tactics the terrorists use. At any time, any person on this globe can be killed in a terrorist attack. No one is immune.

Those who follow the rules of war in the War on Terror are not the “good guys” in my opinion, they are handing a strategic and tactical advantage to the terrorists. They prolong wars that otherwise would be over quickly. I see no good outcome from fighting wars the old way. Fighting to win makes so much more sense to me.

I only know slightly one military person who died in Iraq. His parents are devastated. He died fighting for his country last April at age 25. Had we fought to win from the onset, he probably would be alive today along with thousands of others in our military who died.

Instead, thousands more like him will die in future battles and wars, especially when we fight “wars with rules” in the old way and the enemy fights to win in new ways. When the enemy acquires weapons of mass destruction, they will kill exponentially. Maybe then we will fight to win? Or maybe there will still be folks who think we should continue to fight in the old ways while each new WMD attack kills hundreds of thousands of our people.

Don

Pingback by Different Slants » What is War? - RGM

September 2, 2007 @ 2:59 pm

[…] — Rick at 2:59 pm on Sunday, September 2, 2007 PoliticsIn his comments to my previous post, a good friend, Don Larson, got me thinking about the changing nature of war and about how the use […]

Comment by Don Larson

September 10, 2007 @ 7:24 am

The New York Times has an article on the Iraq War today. Americans Feel Military Is Best at Ending the War.

I take it as a sign that Americans are moving in my direction. Maybe one day we will actually fight wars to win quickly and then leave. Hopefully this is the last time Americans try to impress Democracy on another nation.

We should fight wars for one reason only, to defeat the enemy. Put all efforts into that approach and avoid the problems encountered in Iraq and to a lesser extent, Afghanistan.

Don

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